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00:01:22: Welcome to another episode of The Effective Statistician Today.

00:01:34: I'm really happy to have Gotwin Young With me, he recently wrote a very very newest post on LinkedIn.

00:01:43: By the way if you're not in LinkedIn then your really missing out because there's lot of great content and yet various thoughts that are really insightful will go into all of them but we'll pick couple of them to go little bit deeper into these today.

00:02:01: So Kotwin welcome to this podcast.

00:02:04: maybe start with an introduction yourself.

00:02:07: Yes, sure.

00:02:08: Thank you Alexander.

00:02:09: it's a pleasure to be on your podcast and thank you for the invitation.

00:02:14: My name is again carbon young.

00:02:16: I am currently The statistical methodology of these.

00:02:20: so i lead this statistical methodology group at Roche Genentech.

00:02:24: I've been in the pharma industry For about...I just celebrated my tenth year anniversary.

00:02:31: The first four years were at Takeda In Boston Massachusetts and again, some sort of methods group.

00:02:38: Half my role was methodological statistician providing research consultation And another half is as a clinical trial statistician.

00:02:47: I rotated for bit-of time in access groups and then served as study statisticians on early and late phase trials.

00:02:55: Then over the last six years i moved from east coast to west coast with family.

00:03:00: I joined Roche Genentech & its Methods Group became fulltime methodological statistician, still spent part of my time rotating on clinical trials to build that experience.

00:03:10: But for the most part focused on methods work and that relates to a post you mentioned.

00:03:17: I celebrated my tenth year anniversary so had some refluxion So I got it triggered some reactions at some reads but yeah happy to share more about today.

00:03:27: Yeah And congratulations To your positions.

00:03:31: It's quite an impactful group across Olofama.

00:03:36: And I know people like Nelson Kinnersley and Bedding, Jenny Devonport who have been in such positions before... ...and they are all very influential.

00:03:46: so happy to have you as this group positionals from there!

00:03:52: Now let us look into learnings or lessons or insights that we had from your last ten years and will not go into all points, but let's start with the top one.

00:04:04: What is a really important insight that you would like to share?

00:04:10: For some context this was maybe a post I had in mind for actually couple of years Maybe...I can't remember exactly when or six or seven years ago I felt myself starting learning something about my career.

00:04:24: I see patterns or trends and then thought about is something maybe worth sharing.

00:04:30: But of course, being at Roche you have colleagues who've been here twenty-twenty five years.

00:04:35: so... You wonder do I really have something to say compared my more experienced and great colleagues?

00:04:41: So i put it off!

00:04:42: I decided to gather a little bit more experience A Little Bit More Thoughts And as a statistician we all like numbers.

00:04:49: so if I spent the year would be The Year It'd Be Nice Spring To It.

00:04:53: That's a little context behind ten years.

00:04:56: This is a fun exercise for me, if anyone hasn't done it before.

00:05:00: I encourage you to.

00:05:23: very impactful story around that time period.

00:05:25: That I could easily remember.

00:05:27: definitely year three, I learned this year five and learn that.

00:05:30: so it was a really fun exercise for me in just to appreciate the people that helped bring me here.

00:05:37: Appreciate The Fun events made me who i am but also the more difficult events that I couldn't appreciate as much then.

00:05:44: now looking back It Was Really Formative And Constructive.

00:05:48: Yeah you don't need To wait For Ten Years.

00:05:51: I think it's quite helpful to do that on a regular basis.

00:06:21: That's a fantastic point.

00:06:23: I think those are great skills to practice that make you an effective statistician.

00:06:28: totally agree.

00:06:30: Yeah, okay Let's start with your number one.

00:06:33: Maybe the one that i'll go into is The One I learned in my fourth year and it was about finding purpose working on problems that Are Generally worth solving?

00:06:49: And this is maybe my favorite one, because of course all the stories behind it.

00:06:54: But this was most meaningful to me.

00:06:56: The background was that a couple years before around year two I had identified a gap in literature long.

00:07:05: story short This is about non-proportional hazards.

00:07:09: At time a lot of companies and academics were thinking with the rise of immunotherapy clinical trials how do we size, how do we analyze and design studies?

00:07:22: And so papers came out where if you have this sort of non-proportional hazards.

00:07:28: You calculate power in sample sizes like this.

00:07:30: If you had that Non proportional hazards are calculated differently.

00:07:35: I felt as always studying survival analysis That twenty thirty years ago there were equations or thoughts Where a very general formula for any kind of non-proportional hazards and I just felt like that understanding was maybe forgotten or missed.

00:07:53: And so, i just wanted to rewrite the paper to clarify that theory applied to the current state affairs like the log rank test.

00:08:01: how can you calculate its power in sample size under high level at a technical level, that was my purpose.

00:08:11: Like trying to fill in naturally like any PhD pieces but filling the gap or poking a hole and feel the statistics.

00:08:19: And this is interesting for me To start working on because I don't know about you Alex.

00:08:25: But when i first started out of my career ,I wanted to become known .

00:08:29: I want it be productive.

00:08:31: So anything that I would touch as oh let's write a paper About That My mindset, you just wanted to carry everything into perfection and at least for me I'm not as productive.

00:08:44: So i ended up doing almost anything because I am trying too many things And the fact is some things aren't worth writing about.

00:08:53: Maybe something's interesting or a consultation maybe an interesting day thought exercise but it isn't so interesting that more people need to know.

00:09:06: realizing that my time is limited, I found this problem.

00:09:10: That...I really believed it!

00:09:12: I really believe there was a gap and so that was part of just finding that

00:09:17: purpose.".

00:09:18: And why does that become important?

00:09:20: or Why Is That Important To Me?

00:09:22: Later on wasn't about publishing for publishing sake anymore.

00:09:26: It's Really Filling This Gap and Publishing is A Long Journey.

00:09:32: I think you agree.

00:09:34: Well, unless your one of those star professors that write a paper on a weekly basis for me it's more on two to four year span or paper that i'm really driving.

00:09:45: is that your experience too Alex?

00:09:48: If you think about the methodological paper yeah this usually takes a lot of time.

00:09:53: also the more you collaborate with others It usually gets my higher quality but in...it also slows things down.

00:10:02: And then when you get into the publication period and submit it to journals, wait for getting a response.

00:10:11: Then you do get a rejection.

00:10:13: You get some next journal that changes things submitted again still get a rejections so on.

00:10:21: So these can take quite awhile.

00:10:24: Exactly

00:10:26: It's.

00:10:26: at one time I had several kind of papers in the go But I made the same mistake.

00:10:33: Yeah, i tried to solve problems that are maybe sort interesting for me but not That i'm really widely relevant.

00:10:43: So it's much more better To go for something that is widely relevant and nail that Then to work on something said as too niche?

00:10:56: I think four kind of.

00:10:57: if you just have ideas or think how that could be solved that way, you don't need a paper anymore.

00:11:05: You could have an article or write a blog post about it and still get your knowledge out there because in the end publication is helping the community not being more visible.

00:11:24: It's interesting.

00:11:24: you mentioned about blogs.

00:11:26: That's not something that I really, other than posting on LinkedIn... ...I know some statisticians regularly post they have their own blog site but yeah i think that's a great idea in terms of just getting an idea out there.. ..that may not be worth publishing maybe want to share and when you write we all know this- When You Write it develops your thinking too right?

00:11:47: So thats'a great lower barrier an opportunity to kind of entertain these middle thoughts.

00:11:54: But yeah, totally agreed I think most of us experienced this idea of the publishing journey being a long but that's where the purpose is so important.

00:12:02: i had some similar experience especially for this project.

00:12:06: The actual theory maybe took me a couple months to write and derive but then the rest of your journey was two three years I think And part drama with the first initial group, one particular referee.

00:12:21: I was kind about it but if i pointed out there is a mistake in their theory they ended up being The Referee and of course They didn't like It.

00:12:29: And they said so...it Was A Circular..It Was A Thing.

00:12:32: There Just Came A Time Where....I Remember I Had To Decide.

00:12:36: My Manager Asked Me Why Don'T You Just Go Publishing Another Paper?

00:12:40: Avoid This Reviewer?

00:12:41: But I Believed In This So Strongly decent journal I had submitted to.

00:12:47: I'd always had a goal, like...I think this is at that tier?

00:12:51: I hope i can publish in

00:12:52: there.".

00:12:53: This was where the purpose kick-in were.

00:12:55: sometimes you listen to your manager most of time I would say you should but that was a time that I believed so strongly and I was in my own camp!

00:13:03: I said no, I believe in this.

00:13:05: I believe my theory is right.

00:13:07: I'll rewrite the paper from scratch for the second set of reviewers.

00:13:13: even though a lot of it was criticism and so the paper just got a lot better.

00:13:18: So that was significant learning for me, one is... Even if its criticism or negative feedback there's something constructed that could be part of it And combined with your purpose It can push you work not only on paper but also to the next level.

00:13:34: The last little side story that made this articulate time period really important to us when we talk about work and the challenges there.

00:13:42: The referees, publishing maybe balancing with your utter priorities especially as a methodological statistician.

00:13:50: but then there's that significant other part of our lives which is life.

00:13:54: so at that time I had my first born.

00:13:57: it was maybe two years old and then of course i was married...I remembered that being a difficult period balancing publishing writing taking care of their family.

00:14:11: And my wife, near the end at the publishing period she fell into depression and this was combined.

00:14:18: early twenty-twenty if you know.

00:14:20: Twenty-Twenty is COVID.

00:14:22: so at the same time My daughter lost.

00:14:24: we no longer had daycare.

00:14:27: So I remember distinctly waking up extremely early those who know me on a postcard.

00:14:32: No, no i wake really early.

00:14:34: This one that habits started it woke very early did a bit of work and took care of my daughter during the day.

00:14:40: And then would cook,

00:14:42: etc.,

00:14:42: so it was work—it was life!

00:14:44: And that night when I finally went to sleep... ...I sometimes get woken up in the middle of the night to help my wife process her depression.

00:14:51: That's only time we had because she is a light person So she will think about all things that she was processing.

00:14:58: It was very difficult for me.

00:15:01: Those are the thing people don't see We publish, perform We get awards or we do well at work.

00:15:08: Oh, we don't do a lot of work But the life is what's happening every day.

00:15:13: and that was the period I was going through.

00:15:14: And it was very difficult because at that time i talked A little bit about early career.

00:15:20: you want to kind of You wanna Do your best?

00:15:22: You want to hopefully in thirty years Get somewhere.

00:15:26: but at that Time at that year four It wasn't About performing it Was about surviving and people Don't see That.

00:15:33: And how this came full circle was when I finally got that paper accepted.

00:15:44: And so that paper acceptance, getting that email was probably the biggest highlight of my career where no one can see.

00:16:12: It's biggest vindication were I felt just if you're religious or not but quite the world's recognition that your finding the right balance between work and life?

00:16:21: That is kind why this is a one-of-the ones who really speak out to me—finding purpose!

00:16:28: or technical, the referees but also pushed me through to finish line when I was feeling down and one of my family was going through troubles.

00:16:37: Yeah... I completely agree.

00:16:39: we are not just statisticians.

00:16:42: We're dads, husbands, sons daughters wives And this is very often a much more important part in our life.

00:16:52: i think if you sing like way ahead You probably don't care so much about how many papers you have, that you will do care about what kind of relationship with your kids is your loved ones.

00:17:08: And in our business world I sometimes see people focus too much just on their career and i've been guilty as well.

00:17:18: they're completely one of the reasons why i developed depression.

00:17:23: there are periods where But there also need to be periods where other things are priority and that is completely fine.

00:17:34: Very good, awesome!

00:17:39: a month before, as he said.

00:18:00: Oh another very important thing is and I was like oh what's this in the email?

00:18:05: What's this important

00:18:05: thing?".

00:18:05: He's like make sure you attend your kid's soccer

00:18:10: game.".

00:18:10: And of course my kid at that time was too so she still hates soccer.

00:18:13: now sorry there's a world cup.

00:18:15: i should call it football but i think the message rings right... The point is don't skip out on life because of work and he emphasized that again, when I started working with me in the rest of the group.

00:18:31: really wrong too.

00:18:31: And Jenny says the same thing.

00:18:33: she really made sure that i would take care if you understood my now two kids.

00:18:38: so have a full place where she understands Take care your family first.

00:18:41: only When Your Family is well taken care of can You fully show up at work?

00:18:46: That's something I try to carry on what my team members know.

00:18:49: yeah very good Let's go to The next one.

00:18:52: So the Next One Is Year Seven And this is about listening.

00:18:56: So there's a common one.

00:18:57: you're here, but I think it's in common because it's critical and important.

00:19:02: so listening to understand others listen to understand yourself and realize that the opposite of disagreement isn't agreement Isn't alignment?

00:19:12: But It's actually understanding.

00:19:14: The story behind This One was at this point A couple years into Roche And some of the feedback I had gotten from my stakeholders was, Godwin's great.

00:19:28: He's consulting.

00:19:29: he seems knowledgeable about many different areas but we don't know him for one particular area.

00:19:34: i always scattered again and then From my perspective that is purposeful.

00:19:39: .I had joined a new company ,i just want to do it as much as i can on whatever.

00:19:43: whoever needs help essentially is whoever.

00:19:45: i was happy to dive into in collaboration with anybody who was willing to have me.

00:19:51: But I think at that point, it was like...I needed to narrow my focus.

00:19:55: So I heard that.

00:19:56: but what's interesting is so I listened around the organization and looked out What our CEO or CMO were they worried about?

00:20:04: What are our statisticians struggling with?

00:20:05: And so i started realizing that Roche Was really concerned About having one Or two too many base three failures.

00:20:15: That of course Is concerning To leadership because One or Two extra Failures means revenue, which could mean we're making poor decisions.

00:20:24: And then down to the statisticians We have something quantitative to contribute called assurance or poverty of success and so I tried to figure out is this somewhere that i can contribute?

00:20:37: At least at Roche The ways to calculate probably a success were heterogeneous.

00:20:42: There was the statistical way the quantitative weight that I mentioned assurance.

00:20:46: but because assurances only really stray forward when your phase two looks like you're phase three, same population.

00:20:53: Same endpoint.

00:20:54: Same even intercurrent events basically the same estimate which is seldom the case.

00:20:59: sometimes statisticians would have a hard time calculating insurance.

00:21:03: so then host separate group Which was really in charge of how do they success portfolio?

00:21:08: They had their own way of calculating which has completely non quantitative qualitative subjective and So this is the space I entered.

00:21:18: And I thought, is there something that I could do here?

00:21:21: But having said really the thing I did first was just try to understand what everyone's perspective was by everyone trying to solve with what they were offering.

00:21:32: and i held these we call them workshops.

00:21:35: it was about maybe every two weeks or a month where Every different group even within stats We have different parties will calculate this way in this week.

00:21:44: So there were three to four groups of people that I gathered, and they're like hey are you willing to come?

00:21:50: And just talk about what you're doing.

00:21:53: Everyone else will be in attendance i'll moderate...and maybe at that time people knew at least who I was.

00:21:59: so they were willing to Come!

00:22:01: And so this experience is really a great learning experience for me.

00:22:06: but the part I wanted to share with us it's interesting.

00:22:10: after two or And listening, I hadn't really interjected any kind of thoughts on my own yet.

00:22:19: I didn't like hey this is the way to solve it?

00:22:21: I'm a statistician.

00:22:22: how can you be qualitative about these?

00:22:24: You have to be quantitative.

00:22:26: No but i had just listened.

00:22:27: okay understand why are doing that?

00:22:31: Understand what your trying to solve.

00:22:33: and What I saw looking back was maybe A year later whenever this topic came up increasing importance, because we didn't fix it.

00:22:45: It was something that was permeating our organization.

00:22:48: whenever someone came up like oh!

00:22:50: We're thinking about this problem.

00:22:52: people would suddenly say hey have you talked to Godwin?

00:22:55: Have he talk the godwin?

00:22:57: And thats nothing I had ever planned its not.

00:23:01: i had a genius idea and solved everyone's problems.

00:23:05: Thats something im doing now only after couple years of finding a threat or potential solution.

00:23:11: they really The listening part is what I credit to where bringing people together or listening and just trying to understand the problem.

00:23:19: That's, I suddenly found that people appreciated it... ...and started to find coherency in connections between groups.

00:23:27: Yeah!

00:23:27: It was a lot of fun.

00:23:29: Listening and learning were a lot more fun.

00:23:32: Just to comment on maybe being able to balance back into life this work-in-progress?

00:23:37: I thought because of that experience i'm good listener but now that I'm a manager, i find out...I have another level to tap into.

00:23:48: From my perspective too much in my group meetings and so learning how to just zip my mouth And be open with quietness right?

00:23:59: Just having the space where someone may think about to chime-in not having to dive in when I'm like, okay.

00:24:07: I need to fill this quietness because it's awkward or no

00:24:09: etc.".

00:24:10: So there is a whole other level i need to tap into.

00:24:13: my wife will tell me that every day.

00:24:15: hey you could listen better but you need to listen now.

00:24:17: don't listen to us all.

00:24:18: Listen To Understand and just assure That There Is Levels To It And so encourage listeners too.

00:24:26: listen

00:24:27: completely agree.

00:24:29: interestingly In the effective social leadership program The first Skill we teach is listening

00:24:38: very first.

00:24:39: the first skill

00:24:40: Wow,

00:24:40: because I think it is a most important skill for any leader whether you are supervisor or your Leader without authority.

00:24:52: It's really important and Exactly force reason to understand what really matters And he understands what matters for others.

00:25:03: And only if you understand these things, then... ...you can convince others to do something.

00:25:11: If you don't know what their problem is how will you solve it?

00:25:15: If you DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR PAIN POINTS ARE HOW WILL YOU CONVINCE THEM?

00:25:21: You need TO KNOW WHAT'S IN IT FOR THEM or what are the constraints.

00:25:26: Only THEN you can Convince them.

00:25:29: The other thing that I found really interesting Is the feedback about you.

00:25:36: What others say about you behind your back has a very specific name, it's your brand.

00:25:48: And if you're not known for something especially early in your career You can't be known.

00:25:56: I know everything about statistics which probably nobody Be clear.

00:26:02: you want to be known for something.

00:26:04: And that can, of course a statistical area like probability or success but it also could be something like therapeutic area Or maybe specific business areas like HTA or preclinical research.

00:26:21: Yeah so there are different aspects.

00:26:24: Being aware about this where your know with the brand and how you wanna develop can help you quite a lot.

00:26:30: to drive certain actions.

00:26:34: and circling back to the listening is.

00:26:36: Listening or good listening, it's not a yes-no thing It's on a continuous basis yeah?

00:26:44: And you can think like... The bad listening is like You are on your phone Yeah!

00:26:51: ...and your partner is talking to you.

00:26:53: That's probably the worst thing now The best thing.

00:26:59: You are really present in the moment you're trying to understand.

00:27:05: maybe take notes and You don't think about what do want to say?

00:27:13: And here also Don't just listen with your ears.

00:27:17: It's all so about what is he expression of the other side?

00:27:21: Yeah, it's a body language these kind of things.

00:27:24: We can also ask questions.

00:27:26: that also as part of good listening.

00:27:28: yeah

00:27:29: So and working on this is really important.

00:27:35: And as you said, it's much harder than we

00:27:37: think.".

00:27:39: I love that!

00:28:01: they're about to say, because they feel like there's an expectation that they need to have an answer or that they know something.

00:28:09: And if we could... I feel always you can focus on.

00:28:13: how do i listen?

00:28:14: What question is going

00:28:15: ask?".

00:28:16: That releases the kind of stress having to perform Because responding as a performance in no way Like How are your peers?

00:28:25: and now for me As manager The first couple months what struck me was Just because suddenly I have a title, I do feel like there are some people that approach me now with the different... We've known each other for years but all of sudden they weigh what i have to say more than your statistical methodology lead.

00:28:46: What do you think about this topic?

00:28:49: It's like anything I see has more weight to it.

00:28:53: They can go maybe someone else and say This is what the Statistical Methodology Group or the LEED says.

00:28:59: But to your point, I don't know everything.

00:29:03: And so I felt the pressure like wait if someone's coming to ask me If i focus on.

00:29:10: Wait now there's an expectation that no more than I do and have a worry about That instead of listening?

00:29:17: I could very well give bad advice.

00:29:20: I Could Very Well lose my brand.

00:29:22: Brand reputation is very difficult To build but it takes a moment to lose Like Give one Bad Answer That person doesn't know what he's talking about, so I definitely feel that pressure.

00:29:32: So again back to what you said about listening.

00:29:34: who really listening to understand?

00:29:35: iIfeel like release.

00:29:36: that stress focuses you on What You Should Be Focused On.

00:29:39: Anyways understanding the problem and it's okay To Not Know.

00:29:42: And It'S Okay To Ask Question!

00:29:44: I think its great to ask questions.

00:29:46: Its a great to asked question.

00:29:47: is this great to signal that you don't know... ...and even more important if your getting more senior?

00:29:56: So, when early in my career I had a one-to-one with Waldorfem and he was the most senior statistician at Lillie at that time.

00:30:03: And i was expecting like... ...I would be the one asking all of these questions!

00:30:08: He'd have to answer them all!

00:30:10: And it was exactly the other way around!

00:30:13: He asked me all those questions what does this market look like in Germany?

00:30:19: What is your experience or you've done non-traumatric statistics?

00:30:24: How can we use this?

00:30:25: All these kind of things.

00:30:26: And he was such a good listener and so humble at the same time, I think that's great combination!

00:30:34: Since then i have seen so many senior people talk more than they listen... ...and that makes for bad manager.. ..and even much worse director.... ...and a nightmare VP!

00:30:50: Listen More Talk Less And leverage the knowledge of your people, not what you know.

00:30:59: I love that my team have a very talented young team and that really taps into.

00:31:06: how do i realize their potential?

00:31:10: They have it maybe...I am still learning about it.

00:31:15: Maybe they don't even know its there but listening asking questions helps them untap that potential.

00:31:22: Yeah, if you're that leader sounds like someone I would aspire to be.

00:31:25: Let's go to your third point and by the way we'll link all of our ten points in the show notes so you will find some there.

00:31:35: This might be the last one i mentioned today.

00:31:37: this is another common one but again an important one.

00:31:40: finding mentors.

00:31:42: Don't Be Bound By Your Own Limited Perspective.

00:31:44: We Talk About Listening But Mentors Provides That.

00:31:47: Other Perspectives too.

00:31:49: Find people you can trust to give you brutally honest feedback.

00:31:53: What feels normal, to you might actually be your greatest

00:31:56: strength.".

00:31:57: So the story behind this... The last part is especially what it feels normal for me.

00:32:02: I credit to Alain.

00:32:03: He told me-I don't know how long maybe half a year or a year later after he hired me That two things One..He started telling in private and one on once.

00:32:15: God wouldn't think that could become future leader of his group.

00:32:19: He was the first one to see it.

00:32:22: And I guess he's a fortune teller because that came true, but I asked him about...I didn't understand why I knew here and just tried do my best as much as possible But he would harp with me and focus on one character of mine.

00:32:40: That made me unique or special is what he hired me for.

00:32:44: He said you are so explicitly You're just so dang calm.

00:32:51: And I was like, what are you talking about?

00:32:53: When we interviewed you and i had forgotten this even happened when We interviewed do remember that you gave a technical presentation on my gear.

00:33:01: of course it Was the topic.

00:33:03: there's actually The paper I mentioned in their first story.

00:33:06: It said yeah is like to your member how the Technical Presentation started.

00:33:10: I might know but then I Just go into the present talk again.

00:33:14: No, we have five or ten minutes of technical difficulties.

00:33:18: This is all virtual.

00:33:19: My interview process was completely virtual, I didn't meet anybody at Genentech or Roche actually for the first two years of my work so let alone the interview.

00:33:27: but he's like yeah we have technical difficulties and you just waited!

00:33:31: You weren't impatient...you weren't upset with anyone.

00:33:35: And when we finally got our act together When The Zoom or Google Meets worked It went right into it.

00:33:44: Your time, I probably had about forty-five minutes originally but then adjusted it to thirty or forty minutes.

00:33:48: So i knew where would cup and was like I'll skip this.

00:33:51: so got the point And you're just so dang calm!

00:33:56: Oh okay yeah sure that's me.

00:33:58: my wife tells me im calm sometimes to a fault when she is trying to wallow up emotions Like why are your still calm?

00:34:05: But yea thats just me.

00:34:06: I didn't think its special at all.

00:34:08: It was normal.

00:34:09: again back what do u think is normal?

00:34:12: That was that conversation, but years later and even now as I'm getting some feedback from my team members having stepped into being a leader for only half the year.

00:34:22: One team member also said that it's so great to have you step in your soul calm And You just bring this presence?

00:34:29: So i've heard over The years and years From different stakeholders from above and below and parallel Just like my calm demeanor.

00:34:39: when you hear that over-and-over again You start to realize it's not normal.

00:34:44: That maybe this is what makes you who-you are, or that may be a character I can bring as a

00:34:49: leader.".

00:34:49: But again just tying this back like Alan was my first person to identify that and consider him my mentor now.

00:34:58: but thats what mentors do when they get know them from their experience.

00:35:05: They have seen many other leaders.

00:35:12: So they haven't understanding of the different styles that what makes a good leader, like you said and what makes about later?

00:35:18: And why.

00:35:19: you could maybe step into not necessarily positional leader but can take to your next level What make's unique That makes shine.

00:35:29: so I thought it was incredibly rewarding for me and really benefited a lot.

00:35:35: Alan, Jenny are considering now my mentor.

00:35:38: I have a couple other mentors.

00:35:39: Kasper has also appeared on the show, i think he won't be surprised.

00:35:44: it's technically incredibly strong but i'll see him as a mentor.

00:35:47: so...i really try to surround myself with mentors of different strengths that i could learn from.

00:35:55: and this is maybe the last part why i stepped into leadership about half-a year ago?

00:36:05: There are, I think two kinds of leaders.

00:36:07: Ones that always wanted to be a leader and going keep climbing... ...I want it become maybe VP one day.

00:36:12: And there are many us in methods where we love what we do.. ..I could do this forever!

00:36:18: But i really could.

00:36:20: I loved my job as an individual contributor As a methodological statistician but It came up point last year Where I realized I can either wait for someone I didn't know their priorities, didn't know the philosophy to step into leadership or I could try and carry what I learned.

00:36:40: The philosophy that I believe in is a group that I knew it would be.

00:36:44: so I applied partly because of that but also partly because I knew i wasn't doing it alone .I knew that I was not going to become leader without any kind of support , I'd have a whole network of mentors who I can tap into if they don't know this situation If I need to be checked for my humility, if I needed to check that i'm not running this group into the ground.

00:37:08: I know someone will speak up and hey you could do this or think about it.

00:37:12: so That's what gave me courage ultimately Not feeling.

00:37:16: It wasn't like year four where I felt alone in a room with my daughter.

00:37:21: I had a community behind.

00:37:23: So maybe I would have been successful With other people experience backing me

00:37:32: And there's actually a couple of episodes about mentoring and these kind of different topics.

00:37:38: The basis for this is that you have a good network with people, and you build the genuine connection to other people.

00:37:47: Our overall community isn't huge Yeah?

00:37:51: Very small

00:37:52: Very small!

00:37:54: If we get more engaged then go to conferences After some time.

00:37:58: it feels like class reunion everytime You know because you see

00:38:03: the same people, similar

00:38:05: people.

00:38:06: Yeah it's the same person that maybe had a project together with... Maybe they work on their client side or just around.

00:38:16: Or if we study together and write a paper together or to work in a committee together.

00:38:23: there are so many kinds of different possible collaborations.

00:38:27: That is what I really love And building this network will help you to also find people that can help and they can mentor you.

00:38:36: That doesn't necessarily need someone who is more senior, I heard about two female statisticians One Thary Junior early in the career The other one a VP.

00:38:51: They were mentoring eachother.

00:38:54: Also reverse mentoring because the VP learned alot.

00:39:00: what's on the mind of these young people at some moment?

00:39:05: I love that.

00:39:06: What are their topics, or does they're challenges?

00:39:10: because the more you go into management it is very easy to lose connection towards actually happening for the typical trial-or-project statistician.

00:39:23: so think about creating a network that helps you move forward and as you said You might have one person that is more better on certain technical things, another person that's maybe better in a therapeutic area and other persons are just very good at giving you leadership advice.

00:39:43: Try to have really good network where we can talk with people.

00:39:48: And this isn't only about having a better career.

00:39:52: it also has value because its so much fun and you also always give back.

00:40:01: And

00:40:02: I think that is valuable in itself.

00:40:04: I loved the last part, right?

00:40:06: At the end of day these are conversations or shots sometimes about footballs, sometimes world cup but it's fun!

00:40:13: That what makes us who we are by having some relationships In addition to just actual technical work.

00:40:21: So fully agree really like that

00:40:23: Awesome.

00:40:24: so we talked a lot three points and the podcast episode is a little bit longer.

00:40:30: That's why you understand that we didn't talk about all ten points, I once did a podcast episode with Wold often about his twenty points And he needs to split set into two one hour episodes.

00:40:43: So that is just scroll very far back.

00:40:46: It wasn't first year of this podcast.

00:40:50: I'd be interested.

00:40:57: That was pretty much at the end of his career that he gave these kind of presentations, thanks so much for this thought then!

00:41:05: For the listener check out the links in show notes and i have a perception god when it's not your last time you'll be on this show.

00:41:14: Thank You So Much Your Time.

00:41:16: thank you to listeners.

00:41:17: It Was Really A Pleasure.

00:41:25: This Show Was Created In Association With PSI Thanks to rain, well positioned background and thank you for listening.

00:41:33: Reach your potential, lead great science and serve patients – just be an effective statistician!