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00:01:31: Welcome to another episode of The Effective Statistician.

00:01:35: Today, I'm talking with my good friend Alan Benning again which is awesome and we talk about an absolutely fundamental topic.

00:01:46: And that is trust!

00:01:49: Trust is one of the things that continuously comes up in all the leadership trainings that i do because you can't do anything without trust.

00:02:03: Convince someone you can negotiate.

00:02:06: Nothing works if there is not at least some form of trust.

00:02:12: now one of the problems around Trust actually many other forms around leadership Is how do we know whether this good trust?

00:02:23: Can be actually measured?

00:02:26: There's a thing in psychology, If You can't measure it and it's not a real concept.

00:02:34: So today we will talk quite about the measurement of trust, so Ellen how are you doing?

00:02:42: Today

00:02:43: I'm good thank you.

00:02:43: Alexander is going to be back on the podcast with yourself episodes myself but its great to be... With You!

00:02:51: It always better when you have some fantastic conversations really lucky for this one because Trust Is My Little Baby.

00:03:00: use the backbone to effective leadership.

00:03:02: And as you mentioned, without having a good foundation of trust or great foundation at Trust it's very much more difficult to be able do all other things we need to do with leaders and statisticians always anybody in any walk-of-life.

00:03:19: It is very difficult doing that if your not trusted in first place.

00:03:24: Yeah, trust its really important between You and your supervisor, it's important between people that work below you or that report to colleagues but also with cross-functional teams.

00:03:40: Or if you're sitting in a zero when he worked as a client.

00:03:46: trust is everywhere really important.

00:03:49: And

00:03:51: yeah absolutely!

00:03:52: You realize the most is there absence of trust.

00:03:58: I recently had a meeting with someone that i didn't trust at all.

00:04:13: and said to turret trust a lot.

00:04:32: And I felt like I'm working on eggshells, so-to say that makes it really difficult work.

00:04:40: Yeah absolutely!

00:04:41: That feeling you're walking on egg shells is an awful feeling because... You haven't got any psychological safety but you have not gotten the safety in place how you feel or what your feelings are, thoughts and opinions.

00:05:03: That's a great metaphor for walking on eggshells.

00:05:07: Eggshells will break if we walk up them.

00:05:10: And it is similar to the thing that If We Don't Have The Trust Whatever We Say Is Going To Possibly Beheld Against Us.

00:05:17: One of the things... We hear organisations all the time talk about trust being really important.

00:05:27: Trust is what we.

00:05:28: it's one of the things really strong on and I say, We hear over an over again in organizations.

00:05:36: But The biggest thing Is if its so important?

00:05:39: If you don't measure It were not measuring trust On a regular basis that the organization will say trust is Really important to us.

00:05:46: but at the end Of day how they quantifying That i'll probably say with doing Employee engagement surveys all those sorts of Things quantifying trust through those, or are they just trying to get an opinion on where they are at a particular moment in time?

00:06:02: Also if you can't measure trust how do you know such actions that improve the trust.

00:06:11: It's like with a clinical trial.

00:06:13: yeah this is so... If you're not clear of your endpoints and whether your end points actually measure what you want to measure it's there no sensitive say.

00:06:24: all doesn't work.

00:06:26: And especially in organizations, you want to continuously improve trust.

00:06:33: You wanna have certain mechanisms in place that help with trust but if you don't know whether they work... ...you can't adjust them.

00:06:44: and also I think one of the important things is are you doing anything that actually deteriorates trust so it makes it worse?

00:06:53: My perception very often If you stop doing those things that make the situation worse, That can be the biggest ways to improve it.

00:07:05: It may not know a fancy team event or whatever.

00:07:11: Stop doing these things that the Toria Trust is usually I would guess much bigger way to

00:07:18: help.".

00:07:19: And that's really good point because if your not mentioning in first place You don't where are.

00:07:25: But also, like you say if you don't measure it.

00:07:27: You don't know If there's something that we're doing as a leadership team That has taken away some of the trust And I thought just came into my head There The...if the leadship team are on this Trust journey and they want to measure Trust They will probably automatically start Doing things which they Know Are going to improve Trust And eventually, yeah it might at the start seem a little bit clunky and they may not get terribly used to it.

00:07:57: But over time that's going to become a habit.

00:08:01: so once they start forming those habits even in the start if it feels clunky or very awkward Over time thats gonna feel much more authentic than them.

00:08:12: They can bring their own authenticity too That way of building trust.

00:08:19: Therefore, over time it's going to build up into a habit where they don't even have to think about.

00:08:23: It just becomes naturally them.

00:08:26: I see also very important from a kind of KPI goal-setting perspective.

00:08:33: if you measure trust and You can see that improves That for me lead measure that helps you understand What will happen later?

00:08:46: So i love this concept.

00:08:47: Lead measures are things that you can directly influence.

00:08:52: If he do certain thing, then you improve trust.

00:08:55: Lab measures is something that you cannot direct the influence like retention or how people show up at work?

00:09:04: How financial outcomes... Things Like That!

00:09:07: That Is Much More Difficult To Directly Influence But Trusts A Little Bit More Earlier In The Overall Pipeline.

00:09:16: For Me Also It underlines this concept of the service value chain.

00:09:23: So, Service Value Chain has basically three steps.

00:09:27: Leadership takes care of people or employees.

00:09:32: The employees take care of their client however you define them and the client takes care for results.

00:09:42: in these three steps And leadership taking care of employees, there is where trust plays a huge role first.

00:09:53: And then of course, employees taken clear off clients as the kind of outwards facing trust.

00:09:59: and I want to take go back a step for me because you mentioned about things like retention on all those aspects.

00:10:07: There was a paper published in Harvard Business Studio in two thousand and seventeen by by Zach Paul Zack.

00:10:15: that said Essentially, if you can measure trust and you could see an improvement in trust.

00:10:22: You get less stress, you got sick days... ...you're getting more productivity, more engagement And most importantly at all it improves retention.

00:10:31: I can't remember the numbers off top of my head but i know there's a measure on retention that comes with that improvement in Trust.

00:10:41: High-trust societies have So much more attention because it makes sense.

00:10:46: if you trust your organization, you'll trust the leadership team.

00:10:50: Then You are gonna want to stay at that company whereas If you don't have trust in the lead ship team of the organisation then there's not necessarily going to be a need for an organisation.

00:11:06: How can we measure trust?

00:11:10: I'm going

00:11:11: to talk about the leadership trust index with my good friend John Blakey produced or developed as part of his doctorate was entrust and quite recently late last year he had an article published in half a business review.

00:11:27: Entitled.

00:11:28: if trust is so important why are we measuring it?

00:11:32: It's really good paper too, Introduce the leadership trust index and there's two parts of each of trust index.

00:11:40: There is also the organizational trust index, so the organization trust index saying how much as your guys I should trusted.

00:11:47: The lead to trust index you say in how have trusted his a leadership team

00:11:52: and

00:11:54: like I can say it was developed by John.

00:11:56: but not only that.

00:11:57: he then used their in some quite large organizations like awesome football club money corp the NHS, all in UK-based companies but also global based companies.

00:12:09: To create a benchmark of trust against what organisations can be measured to?

00:12:15: Now the benchmark itself is not perfect and we encourage that.

00:12:23: the Leisure Trust Index is measured at start of an engagement then half way end.

00:12:31: so you measure it from a longitudinal perspective And using this, you get numbers which then relate to the nine habits of trust.

00:12:39: Which I've talked about before and You can then see where we lacking as a leadership team in those nine habits at Trust.

00:12:47: now The importance of both the OTI and LTI is if the LTI Is low but the OTIs high it's basically saying your organization is highly trusted But your lead ship team isn't over time that could bring the organizational trust down.

00:13:03: The flip side of that is if your organizational trust index is low and you're leadership trust indexes high, it should bring an organizational trust up to a better extent.

00:13:14: So the LTI... It's evaluated metric And quite recently on our PSI Leadership course we gave people a chance to play with them for themselves To get their own numbers.

00:13:27: Then they can explore where do they need to improve at their trust

00:13:30: school?

00:13:31: So how does it work?

00:13:32: Is that every person in the organization fills it out or is there just people who report directly to leadership teams,

00:13:43: i.e.,

00:13:43: apart from being evaluated so-to say

00:13:46: It's a great question.

00:13:48: The best way would be sending this out into the whole organisation.

00:13:53: Now our surveys don't necessarily get filled by the entire organisation But when we send these out we aim for and I say, We are working with the coaching circle.

00:14:03: And John Blakey on this whole role in this aspect into other organizations.

00:14:10: so what would you do?

00:14:11: You'll send it out to the whole organization hoping for around seventy percent response rate.

00:14:17: If you were in a statistician's we know that surveys come into your inbox.

00:14:22: they don't get filled-out.

00:14:24: Well, guess what those surveys if you get a seventy percent response rate is pretty good.

00:14:29: And then it's also broken down by parts of the organization which we don't necessarily share with the individual leadership team because If the Samsung is small in particular part of the organisation they can guess who that is and when want to keep as anonymous possible.

00:14:44: The survey itself Is A Series Of Eighteen.

00:14:49: It's three per habit, so with a twenty seven probably twenty is twenty eight if you include the qualitative collection of data as well.

00:14:57: There are also obviously questions there which is a qualitative question asking this or anything else that can improve our trust and then we aggregate it when we can produce distributions at the data to show the leadership team on the scale is one two seven.

00:15:13: scale was seven being the pinnacle and one being low.

00:15:17: And what you're probably looking for is more of around a four-and-a-half to five at the start, which you want to go closer to six or seven?

00:15:26: Seven's probably unattainable because if we think about it every question would have to be answered as a seven by everybody!

00:15:35: I think that'd be unrealistic in any organization.

00:15:38: so what your'e probably looking fow is more over number round the five-and half six let me really good score.

00:15:45: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things you can do to improve the response by helping people understand this is really important that it actually matters.

00:15:55: Also seeing said if people after the first round sees at management actually does something about it and says actually change then encourages people to fill out next time.

00:16:11: when i worked at lilies was always yearly corporate evaluation questionnaire.

00:16:19: And one of the questions was, is leadership acting on the findings?

00:16:26: I think that's a really interesting question in itself because if that has answered no then why should you care to fill it out?

00:16:34: so yeah... If those said will actually drive change shows that they want to listen.

00:16:43: That's a really interested, that I really care and i think you'll get the response number.

00:16:49: if you don't get it good response number then in itself is probably finding and maybe your first step was not just go up with the response.

00:17:03: yeah

00:17:03: absolutely make couple of points on that because working with an organization at the moment.

00:17:08: Their first survey, their response rate was thirty percent.

00:17:12: and my first question is what's going on here?

00:17:17: Because like you say that missing data which missing data effectively... That could be informative in itself.

00:17:23: In fact people are not filling those surveys out so The organisation they're looking into.

00:17:29: how can we improve that going forward?

00:17:32: And you made the exact point he made as well that if the organization sees, The leadership team talking a lot about trust and saying about trusting they we've already rolled this out.

00:17:43: And told them whole organization This is where the lead ship team are going on.

00:17:47: the leadership team in themselves have been evangelizing it.

00:17:50: just hold trust aspect.

00:17:52: but If I think the organization then see the leadership acting on their measures and becoming a little bit more responsive to what they're seeing than that hits the habit of delivering.

00:18:05: So if they're seeing something, they are delivering against... That's going to prove that mine is a trust but also hopefully their response rate particularly if somebody has filtered out or haven't filtered it out for example and they see okay these should be really acting on this.

00:18:21: I'm gonna make sure now that i fill it out.

00:18:23: so when we go forward Lee should continue to act on this And I am going to continue to hold the leadership to account.

00:18:30: Yeah!

00:18:33: Real trust comes from, not talking but doing.

00:18:37: I mentioned that again and my leadership courses.

00:18:41: the most powerful way of communicating in terms of sending information is acting-doing.

00:18:52: so people see he's actually really doing these things.

00:18:57: He isn't just talking about it Especially when push comes to shove.

00:19:05: That's where trust comes.

00:19:07: Great point, and that is the habit of delivery... And I always talk about the nine habits.

00:19:14: if you can't deliver as a leader then your less likely be trusted.

00:19:23: but it not just delivering on your promises.

00:19:25: so make sure But also make sure you're consistent in that delivery as well.

00:19:32: If you deliver for ninety nine percent of the time and then not one percent time, You don't deliver.

00:19:37: That's the point that people remember And that's what we see when we look at it.

00:19:42: interesting When you look at the qualitative messages they are coming through which often tell you Where?

00:19:50: The organization really should be communications a really important that is.

00:19:55: one thing though I've seen consistently as a theme coming through the qualitative stuff that your organization is not communicating.

00:20:03: And again, I think that's due to delivery because there's a lot of delivery in their and they want to deliver message.

00:20:10: but it was also little bit about being humbles by evangelizing what's there?

00:20:15: What's the leadership team mission and evangelize in that mission.

00:20:19: so That's big topic itself.

00:20:23: But i also think its really important when we link trust.

00:20:28: And I think we need to have another episode about these nine habits that you are talking about.

00:20:35: That all kind of form together this overall index in terms of trust, yeah?

00:20:41: So... Absolutely!

00:20:44: Yeah.

00:20:44: I usually talk in terms just the three C's character care and competence.

00:20:51: You need a good character needs to come through show that you care for other person.

00:20:57: And of course, in terms as a actual task you need to have competence.

00:21:02: and here's all about perception.

00:21:04: Yeah?

00:21:05: It's not what you think it's about What the other person thinks In terms of competence care and character.

00:21:10: and after couple episodes or if You just scroll back into find these trust episodes I go much deeper time and to see three things

00:21:20: Absolutely!

00:21:20: And i'm pretty sure I talked About The Nine Habits Of Trust in one of the Friday Episodes.

00:21:25: But in terms of your three C's, you've got competence.

00:21:30: I have ability.

00:21:31: You've got character.

00:21:33: Eye of integrity.

00:21:34: You've Got caring.

00:21:36: I Have benevolence.

00:21:38: They rap so nicely.

00:21:40: So Your Three C's Matt they're not mine but their John Blake is habit equation and the ability Multiplied by integrity multiplied by benevolence.

00:21:48: And i would argue that your three c's are similar there.

00:21:51: their competence multiplied by character, multiply it by caring.

00:21:55: Exactly!

00:21:56: So if you're zero in any one of those your trustworthiness

00:22:01: is zero?

00:22:02: Yeah exactly that's exactly the case.

00:22:04: and my point is the care usually was a once-that-you can most easily move.

00:22:11: yeah competence usually takes some time to build up character super hard.

00:22:17: but the care ones that are really important

00:22:20: And the character wants an interesting one because a character won.

00:22:24: it's all about being open, being honest and.

00:22:28: One of things we took by as being humble.

00:22:30: so that humility in there is well you mentioned to care.

00:22:33: yes caries easy but it isn't want.

00:22:38: easy thing is if somebody does a good job just thank him for like your job.

00:22:43: I'm just a thank-you and i can go on awful long way

00:22:47: or in a white one Just to listen, just to listen for what your direct report.

00:22:56: Your client or colleague wants they actually have on their mind and heart?

00:23:01: Just show interest and try to understand where is there coming from?

00:23:07: What are the pain points of those goals?

00:23:09: shouldn't be that hard.

00:23:11: That's a great question.

00:23:13: Should I believe it hard and all leaders out there listening.

00:23:17: Be that person be the leader.

00:23:20: doesn't go in to want more with your own agenda, but listen and just use your intuition as to what you next question should.

00:23:37: it will come.

00:23:40: And listening doesn't mean used a silent.

00:23:42: you can ask questions for sure.

00:23:45: An active listening option is the activity that's going on in your brain.

00:23:49: So yeah, they completely agree.

00:23:51: Yeah.

00:23:52: so In terms of implementing this trust index How can people learn more about it and what can you do?

00:24:02: So we said maybe inside companies They have a suggestion off doing this.

00:24:07: smaller company It probably gets more easier and bigger companies Maybe need to talk to HR.

00:24:13: good two runs where can say find out more other than going through the links in my show notes.

00:24:18: I think that's probably the starting point, actually is if they want to put a trust program in place and the organization... The best person contact is myself!

00:24:28: And i can then talk them about how we can best roll out.

00:24:33: because for me it's not just case of measuring.

00:24:35: yet you mentioned earlier on people in the organization need to know that the organization is on a journey of trust.

00:24:42: Measure it as just one step, there's got be.

00:24:44: action has gotta be taken.

00:24:46: so what we do in The Coaching Circle Is We Have A Trust Executive Workshop For The Senior Leadship Team To Get Them Rolling On The Trust In First Place.

00:24:57: Then We Roll Out The Leadshift Trust Index And then between the measurements the habits that their lowest numbers are.

00:25:08: We've got workshops on each of those habits, and we work with a leadership team but not just at the senior leadership team will also work with the leaders in next level so working with them on this whole journey of trust.

00:25:22: That's where we have noticed it has worked for us.

00:25:27: In football club John was working with very senior leadership teams.

00:25:31: That was a whole trust program that was rolled out for the very senior leaders, but also at the leadership further down the line as well.

00:25:39: And that really doesn't work.

00:25:41: and what over time is an improvement in their trust?

00:25:44: Then obviously then there are lag measures to come with it – retention or productivity all of those aspects.

00:25:49: What's

00:25:50: Klopp managed right now?

00:25:52: I'm just curious.

00:25:52: He

00:25:53: was Liverpool don't forget!

00:25:55: Klopp was Liverpool.

00:25:56: this was Arsenal.

00:25:56: This

00:25:57: was, I

00:26:00: think it's about eighteen months ago.

00:26:01: Very good!

00:26:02: So interestingly in those eighteen months gone from where they were to their top of the league at that moment.

00:26:10: so yeah... It is an interesting direction and if you win a league there are always measures.

00:26:16: in itself.

00:26:17: There is nothing as measurable or direct impact on sports than professional sport like football.

00:26:25: Thanks very much.

00:26:26: That was a really great discussion about trust, which is absolutely the fundament.

00:26:31: And now there's also way to quantify it and ways to improve that... To do specific things about if you are work on the organization level reach out to Alan.

00:26:47: If he want to improve as an individual your leadership skills You can of course also reach out down but also reached me And you can help yourself.

00:26:57: Yeah,

00:26:58: absolutely and this has been a great conversation.

00:27:01: as always we also have fantastic conversations as Alexander said.

00:27:04: if you want to know more from an organizational level about trust or measuring trust and improving your trust then reach out to either of us for general leadership skill.

00:27:14: brilliant.

00:27:14: thank you

00:27:15: very much.

00:27:20: This show was created in SOCHU with QSI.

00:27:24: Thanks to Reim and ThirteenFUVS for the shown background in CQ for Musnies.

00:27:30: Reach your potential, we try to solve these issues.

00:27:33: Just be an effective statistician!